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+<!--#include virtual="/server/header.html" -->
+<!-- Parent-Version: 1.90 -->
+<title>RMS on the Alex Jones Show
+- GNU Project - Free Software Foundation</title>
+<!--#include virtual="/philosophy/po/rms-aj.translist" -->
+<!--#include virtual="/server/banner.html" -->
+<h2>Richard Stallman on the Alex Jones Show</h2>
+
+<p><em>Transcript of an interview that took place on
+January 19, 2012.</em></p>
+<hr class="thin" />
+
+<dl>
+
+<dt>Alex Jones</dt>
+
+<dd>
+
+<p>Okay, my friends, we've got a real treat for you&mdash;they talk
+about the top ten people out there in Internet land who've really
+changed our perspective on so many things, it's Dr.&nbsp;Richard
+Stallman. He's a software developer and software freedom activist, he
+graduated from Harvard in '74 with a BA in physics and received many
+awards, doctorates and professorships for extensive work.</p>
+
+<p>In January of '84 he resigned from MIT to start the GNU or
+[pronounced] &ldquo;guh-new&rdquo; operating system, meant to be
+entirely free software, and has been the project leader ever since.
+Dr.&nbsp;Stallman also launched the free software movement.</p>
+
+<p>In October of '85 he started the Free Software Foundation (and thank
+god, because nothing would work if we were running off of Microsoft
+still, and I don't know anything about Internet, but I know that), and
+in 1999 Stallman called for development of a free online encyclopedia
+with a means of inviting the public to contribute articles so he was the
+progenitor of Wikipedia.</p>
+
+<p>During his college years he also worked as a staff hacker at the MIT
+artificial intelligence lab learning operating system development by
+doing it.</p>
+
+<p>Stallman pioneered the concept of &ldquo;copyleft&rdquo; and is the
+main author of the GNU General Public License, the most widely-used free
+software license. This is why since the mid-90s Stallman has spent most
+of his time in political advocacy for free software and spreading the
+ethical ideas as well as campaigning against both software patents and
+dangerous extensions of copyright laws. That's why he's probably the
+best guest we can get on to discuss Russia, China, the US: they're all
+using copyright, and later admitting they're using it to shut down free
+speech.</p>
+
+<p>SOPA's just one manifestation of this. And this monster's receding
+for now but it's guaranteed to come back very soon, in fact in a few
+weeks. Here's the Associated Press; &ldquo;Supreme Court Rules Congress
+Can Re-Copyright Public Domain Works&rdquo; that have been out for
+hundreds of years, this is amazing, so here to break down the different
+horrors of the expansion of copyright&mdash;to where you can't even use
+[some] words now, they're saying&mdash;is Professor and
+Dr.&nbsp;Stallman. Thank you for coming on with us, sir.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>Richard Stallman</dt>
+
+<dd>Hello.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Hello. Well, let's go over it I mean what do you make of what's
+happening right now?</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, I haven't read any details about today's Supreme Court
+Decision, I haven't seen that yet. But previously other Supreme Court
+decisions said it was unconstitutional to recopyright anything that was
+in the public domain. But this is a very pro-business Supreme Court, we
+can't trust it to protect human rights. They're going to give those
+human rights to corporations, and protect the rights of corporations,
+but not the rights of humans in any practical sense.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yes, sir. What got you started developing the ideas that have become
+the free software movement that you kicked off?</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>I lived in a free software community in the 1970's, although we
+didn't use that term, when I was working at the artificial intelligence
+lab at MIT. It was part of a community where we shared the software that
+we developed, and all the software that we used was the software of the
+community, and we were happy to share it with anyone that was interested
+in it, and we hoped that if they improved it they would share it back,
+and often they did.</p>
+
+<p>But this community died in the early 80's, leaving
+me face to face with the proprietary software world, which is the way
+everyone else was using software. And by comparison to the life of
+freedom I was used to, proprietary software was ugly&mdash;morally
+ugly.</p>
+
+<p>So I balked at that, I said I am not going to accept the life of
+proprietary software, I would be ashamed of my life if I did that, so I
+decided to build a new free software community. Since the old one was
+based on software for obsolete computers, it was necessary to start
+again from scratch. So I launched that project, and now there are free
+operating systems, now it's just barely possible to use computers and
+not be subjugated by software developers of nonfree software.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>But expanding that, with just basic text copyright, take Righthaven,
+they've been absolutely destroyed in court, they sued a lot of people
+across the spectrum for even taking a paragraph in a comment board where
+it was clearly a third party that had even done it, and they were backed
+by the Associated Press and others, I mean that is really creep to have
+the Associated Press and others actually suing, you know, quadriplegics
+and community activist groups helping homeless people because they had
+one paragraph of their article and clearly were discussing in many cases
+their own&mdash;they were in the news article, they were posting it on
+their blog about them for humanitarian discussion, couldn't get any more
+clear [that it's] free speech, and they were being sued.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, if they went to court they might win, the defendants might win
+on the grounds of fair use, the problem is it's hard to tell in advance
+and it costs you a lot of money to go to court and find out, so those
+people probably didn't have enough money to stand up for what are
+possibly their rights, plausibly their rights. But because of the way
+fair use is defined in copyright law it's not a clear permission. It's a
+rather vaguely-drawn defense against charges of copyright infringement.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yeah, case by case. Shifting gears, overall, specifically on SOPA is
+it heartening for you to see the big blackouts, to see&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>It is. And what this means is, that we can sometimes defeat the
+copyright lobby when it demands increased power. Of course, we haven't
+defeated them yet. We are at least coming close to defeating them, and
+maybe we'll defeat them, but everybody listening to this, you've got to
+phone your senators today, because they're going to vote next week. So
+at least even if we don't actually defeat them we'll have mounted a
+campaign that will have come fairly close.</p>
+
+<p>This is the first time it's been such a fight. When the Digital
+Millennium Copyright Act was passed, the law that censors software that
+you can use to decode encrypted publications, that you can use to break
+digital handcuffs; that was passed in the House of Representatives
+without an explicit vote, it was considered totally uncontroversial,
+there were just a few of us saying that this is an injustice.</p>
+
+<p>And that's why Digital Restrictions Management or DRM is such a pain
+nowadays, because of that law that the copyright lobby purchased in
+1998, which bans the software capable of breaking the digital handcuffs.
+So I am against anything that the copyright lobby wants until they start
+undoing some of the injustices they've already imposed on us.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Doctor, let me try to quantify that from my layman's perspective and
+correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see as the injustice:
+they're talking about their rights as they attempt to put a preemptive,
+non-deliberative, no due process, guilty until proven guilty
+system&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Guilty until proven innocent, I think you meant.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, I was being sarcastic, I mean you're guilty basically, period.
+Yeah, guilty until proven guilty, I was being sarcastic&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Oh, OK.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>But I mean you're guilty up front. And they're basically just
+gobbling up the Internet, gobbling up what people have created, gobbling
+up everything like they're masters of the Universe, and until they
+become reasonable, there's no point in discussing anything with them,
+because they're not giving anyone quarter.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>I agree. But furthermore, the more subtle thing that they're doing
+is that they're trying to focus attention on their problems as if their
+problems needed to be catered to while distracting away from the
+problems they have already imposed on us.</p>
+
+<p>I hope we completely defeat SOPA. But don't forget that copyright
+law in the US already gives them too much power. Of course they're not
+satisfied, they always want more, that's what the 1% do to the 99%, but
+even if we stop them from getting more, that's not enough.</p>
+
+<p>We've got to aim for more than just preventing them from making it
+worse. We've got to undo some of the injustices they have already done
+to us. We have to put an end to the war on sharing, which is a cruel
+war that attacks all of us.</p>
+
+<p>Now, when I say sharing, I mean something specific. I mean
+non-commercial copying and redistribution of published works. Exact
+copies, that means, not modifications. That's a rather limited freedom,
+but that's a freedom all must have so that the war on sharing ends and
+copyright ceases to be tyranny.</p>
+
+<p>Now, that means they've got to stop using digital handcuffs. Lots of
+products nowadays are designed with digital handcuffs. Every DVD player
+you can buy has digital handcuffs&hellip;</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Let me give people an example. I have a TV studio, I have a TV show,
+I make films. I buy prosumer and professional equipment, and half of
+our technical difficulties with digital TVs, monitors, cameras is having
+the right software keys, everything talking to each other plugged in, it
+has to authenticate that I'm allowed to run a video through it, it's all
+spying on me and screwing up my entire operation, my whole life is about
+complying with this stuff, and I bought it and I'm in here using it to
+produce TV, and as the 80 inventors of the Internet pointed out, this
+SOPA would cripple the Internet by putting all these pre-restrictions on
+things.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Well, yes. The worst thing in SOPA is that it becomes easy to shut
+down any website where the public is posting things. It just takes an
+accusation that somebody posted something that was infringing copyright
+and it becomes almost impossible for that site to keep operating.
+That's why Wikipedia decided to go black yesterday, because it would be
+impossible to operate something even vaguely like Wikipedia under the
+rules of SOPA.</p>
+
+<p>Now, after the show's over I'd like you to tell me more about the
+precise details of your problems with these TV systems or have your
+technical person tell me because that's an area I don't know about, and
+I want to know about the details of that.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Sure, if you'd like that, Doctor, I actually have two engineers
+here, and they can explain it to you, but you know we have TV sets
+behind me on the nightly news and they're digital, and just to run feeds
+to them to talk to a guest on Skype or to have a blue background behind
+me, all the TVs you buy that are prosumer or even professional now, it
+has a gate in it that scans to see if I'm even streaming something over
+it that's copyright, and then it's endless&mdash;to use software, you've
+got to have the dongle in the machine, and then that screws
+up&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Well that's 'cause you're using proprietary software. See with
+software there are just two possibilities&mdash;either the users control
+the program or the program controls the users. What you're seeing is
+that with proprietary software, the software controls the users.</p>
+
+<p>Now, what's proprietary software? That's any software for which the
+users don't have the freedom to run it as they wish, study and change
+the source code, and redistribute it either with or without changes.
+So&hellip;</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Sure, just to be clear, doctor&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>&hellip;control. But with Windows or MacOS or Skype the software
+controls the users. That's why I will not use any of that.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, it is the machine surveying us, preemptively turning us into
+slaves. A lot of our operation is run on Linux systems, I'm not a tech
+guy&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Uh-uh, they're not Linux systems, they're GNU systems, and you're
+talking about my work there.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>You're right, you are the progenitor of that with GNU that other
+things grew out of. So GNU systems, we do have a lot of those, one of
+our IT people just absolutely loves your work and has tried to build a
+lot of things around here like that.</p>
+
+<p>But separately, when I've got a pretty big operation&mdash;it's not
+that big, like 34 people&mdash;sometimes we've gotta hurry, we've gotta
+buy software to run TV shows, we've got to get equipment, I'm talking
+about solid state stuff that won't work as well. All I'm saying is that
+it screws everything up.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Hardware can be malicious too. And the encryption of video between
+a computer and a monitor is an example of a malicious hardware feature
+that has been put into essentially all modern PCs by a conspiracy of
+corporations&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yeah!</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>&hellip;including hardware companies and media companies, so you can
+see it! They buy laws like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to
+forbid people to escape from these things, and then they can design our
+technology to abuse us however they wish.</p>
+
+<p>So what you can see is that proprietary software&mdash;even when
+there's hardware that's malicious, the software has to make use of the
+malicious features, so the proprietary software's involved also. And
+when software's proprietary, it is likely to have malicious features in
+it to spy, to restrict, and there's even back doors that accept remote
+commands to do things.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>That's what I was about to get to, sir. We're talking to Richard
+Stallman, free software inventor, creator, guru, Obi-Wan Kenobi type, so
+much of what we live with today that is the only alternative to what the
+big corporate borg are oppressing us with, did come out of his
+ideas.</p>
+
+<p>But expanding on this, doc, that's what I'm saying. I've tried to get
+the freer systems and I'm saying in many cases it does not exist. I
+don't have the money to hire an army of people that are trained in free
+software to be able to even attempt it, and what you said is true.
+There's all these trojan horses built into everything, and I'm even
+paying for it, and it's junk no matter how expensive because the whole
+thing is tied down with these handcuffs, and it just absolutely stifles
+innovation as you said thirty years ago.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Mmn-hmmn. Although it does worse than stifle innovation. You see,
+innovation is the sacred cow of people who claim that they need to be
+allowed to restrict us. They say if they can restrict us they'll do more
+innovation. But innovation can be good or bad. Democracy was once an
+innovation. Tyranny was once an innovation. So innovation can serve us.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Bioweapons were once an innovation.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Innovation will only serve us if we have control over what
+innovations we'll accept and what innovations we'll reject. So I do not
+accept innovation as sufficiently important to justify taking away our
+freedom. Yes, I'd like innovation all else being equal assuming we have
+freedom. But when somebody argues, &ldquo;give up your freedom so we can
+have more innovation,&rdquo; that is literally a trojan horse.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Well that's well said, but my point is, they are&mdash;I mean,
+everybody knows Microsoft stuff works horribly because it's all got back
+doors, spy systems, and it's just total crap. Because, excuse my French
+there, because they're obsessed and control freaks; Bill Gates!</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Yup. But it's not just Microsoft. I've got to point out that Apple
+is even worse&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Oh yeah.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>And Amazon is horrible. The Amazon &ldquo;Swindle&rdquo; and eBook
+reader has known spy features, of course it has digital handcuffs, and
+it has a back door for deleting books. Did you know that Amazon remotely
+deleted thousands of books in 2009?</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yeah, 1984!</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Right. Someone wrote they used up a year's supply of irony
+demonstrating the Orwellian nature of their product, which they call the
+Kindle because it's designed to burn our books&nbsp;[<a href="#f1">1</a>].
+But they demonstrated it by deleting Orwell's book.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Oh, that's another point. They've got this Kazaa thing
+[Note&mdash;Youtube's content fingerprinting system was actually
+licensed from AudibleMagic in 2007] where I've had rights to music, I've
+uploaded it, but because it's in some registrar, suddenly it shuts down
+the audio on my videos that millions of people are watching, and even
+though I have letters sending them to Youtube that I have license here,
+it doesn't matter because the computer recognizes and did that, and they
+now admit they could erase my voice off of these major systems in a
+matter of hours with the same technology&mdash;I mean, you talk about
+dangerous having all the books digital, they could just hit a
+button&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>That's why I won't use such systems, I will never use anything like
+the Amazon Kindle for my books, because I want to have books that I can
+read without any proprietary technology, I want to buy them without
+identifying myself, and I'm not willing to sign a contract to get them.
+If I buy a paper book, I can do it with cash in a book store, I don't
+sign a contract, and my eyes without any aid at all, or at most perhaps
+some lenses, can see the letters. I'm not required to get some secret
+technology just to see what the letters in the book are.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Wow.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>So I will never use those eBooks under any circumstances, and I hope
+that the rest of you will join me. If you want to read more about this,
+look at <a href="http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf">
+http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf</a>, and at the bottom of that
+there's a link to a place you can sign up to participate in our campaign
+against tyrannical eBooks systems.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>I had read some of your writings on this, but the way you put it, we
+can really see it being put into function. I mean, this is a tyranny,
+they've designed the current web system as a tyranny, consciously, as
+you said, the big corporations, and the sick part is when we pay the
+licenses and buy the equipment, we're paying for their own trojan horse
+for them to engage in beyond Orwellian behavior.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, I wouldn't say beyond Orwellian, after all Oceania did things
+even worse than destroying books, they just murdered people, but the
+point is we have to reject these systems, and that's the basic idea of
+the free software movement&mdash;I won't accept the systems that are
+designed to take away my freedom.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>OK, Doctor, I'm going to try to get you in touch right now with one
+of the engineers to give you any of that information you want, and I'll
+say bye to you during the break, perhaps you could even come back for a
+couple more minutes on the other side and tell us more about solutions,
+but, just intriguing to hear you on with us and all the points that you
+bring up, it absolutely makes sterling sense.</dd>
+
+</dl>
+
+<p>[Break.]</p>
+
+<dl>
+
+<dt>Alex Jones</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Well, Richard Stallman, Dr.&nbsp;Richard Stallman, free software
+creator of the GNU system that everything is pretty much based on today,
+Linux, you name it, is our guest for five more minutes. He's going to
+be gone for a while, but hopefully coming up in a few months, we'll be
+able to get him on for a full hour because everything he talks about
+just totally clicks; because I'm not an IT person, but I live
+12&ndash;14 hours per day around it, we're an Internet operation pretty
+much, we're on commercial radio as well and XM, but I live it and I've
+experienced what he's talking about and all the points he makes ties
+right in to what I'm just organically seeing as a lay person here, but I
+was bringing up some intriguing stuff to him during the break.</p>
+
+<p>We have the articles we had the Time-Warner executives send us the
+internal documents after we surmised it, an example of these trojan
+horses. The TiVo systems, the Time-Warner cable systems and others.</p>
+
+<p>When they censored the Jesse Ventura TV show, it aired once, congress
+went crazy on the FEMA camps, ordered them not to air it again, that
+later came out in congress, it was a big scandal, suddenly off of DVRs
+nationwide, cable systems you name it, it disappeared. We confirmed it
+through one Time-Warner office that they were ordered to put the command
+in. They'd never seen that before.</p>
+
+<p>But the point is, you pay for cable, you have a DVR, you record on it
+and then they go in and erase. And I know you want to see the proof of
+that, we'll get it to you, Doctor, but if true, what do you make of
+that?</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>Richard Stallman</dt>
+
+<dd>It's just another example of how nonfree software is a restriction
+on the users, and it's an injustice. So if you look around at any
+nonfree software you've heard of, you know, various products that have
+nonfree software in them, every one of them should not be that way.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yeah, it's very very sad that this is all going on, we're paying for
+our own prison. In just 3 or 4 minutes, because I know you've got to
+go, Doctor, what are some other solutions or things we can start doing
+to weaken the power of the corporate borg?</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Well, all across the various areas of life we can see corporations
+taking control of our government and using that power to hurt most
+people. Of course, there's the financial crisis, and all the Americans
+are facing foreclosures. A lot of these foreclosures are fraudulent,
+the banks are committing fraud when they foreclose, and right now we're
+pushing Obama not to let them off the hook, which is what he wants them
+to do. There are a few states where the Attorneys-General are trying to
+pursue the banksters for their fraudulent foreclosures, and there are
+protests run by Move On, today, I'm going to go to one of them this
+afternoon, but that's just one example.</p>
+
+<p>Of course, the banks created the downturn by purchasing deregulation
+in Congress. And then if we look at, for instance, agribusiness which
+has basically crushed family farming in the US and now gets tremendous
+subsidies to these corporations, subsidies which were originally meant
+to help family farmers, and that made sense. But nowadays, it's just
+subsidies to big business. And then you look at the private prison
+industry, which is a great reason [&hellip;]</p>
+
+<p>They use the prisoners, they have the prisoners work, but it's the
+company that gets the money. The prisoner gets paid like 50 cents a
+day, which is even better for them than hiring somebody in Mexico or
+China. And so, that's a reason to imprison more Americans because
+they're effectively slave labor.</p>
+
+<p>And then we will get the oil companies, and they push for burning up
+our planet. You may have followed the fight to block the Keystone XL
+planet roaster pipeline, and that's not dead either.</p>
+
+<p>So what is it these things have in common? What they have is,
+corporations have power so we need to clean up politics. We need to get
+corporate money out of politics.</p>
+
+<p>And I got a book yesterday, let me read the exact title, it's
+&ldquo;Corporations Are Not People&rdquo; by Jeffrey Clements, and this
+proposes a constitutional amendment to say &ldquo;no, when the
+constitution gives rights to people or persons it's not talking about
+corporations.&rdquo;</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>Well, the power to give corporations rights so they can then stomp on
+our rights, it's very very frightening, and for those who don't know,
+you couldn't even have corporations in this country the way they are
+until about the last 130 years or so, before that they had limited
+duration to build a bridge or to do some type of program. And I
+understand a little company having a corporation so you can have
+different people involved together, but the idea of giving it more
+rights than the humans, and then having these crooks that run it.</p>
+
+<p>I mean, take Mitt Romney: he's got most his money in the Cayman
+Islands, and he's running around lecturing everybody, and he's paying
+almost no taxes.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Well, he said that corporations are people and someone pointed out
+that if that's true, then he's a serial killer.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Ha-ha, yeah I saw that!</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>I don't want to abolish corporations either, but we must abolish the
+political power of business. In this country, it's taken for granted
+that powerful business has a veto over everything. And that means it's
+taken for granted that we've lost our democracy. No one should think
+about that without feeling disgusted and saying this must be
+changed.</p>
+
+<p>Get that book, because he explains how it's not an accident that the
+Supreme Court gave corporations unlimited power to pay for political
+ads. It's the culmination of a 40-year or 35-year perhaps campaign for
+giving human rights to corporations.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>It is very very dangerous, and now those corporations are destroying
+our sovereignty, our local control. Dr.&nbsp;Stallman, thank you so
+much for spending time with us and again give us your website and any
+other websites you think are important for people to look at.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>For free software, look at the Free Software Foundation site, that
+is <a href="http://fsf.org">http://fsf.org</a>, and you can join, if you
+wish. For my other political causes, look at <a
+href="http://stallman.org"> http://stallman.org</a>. And if you want to
+join our fight against digital handcuffs (DRM), go to <a
+href="http://defectivebydesign.org"> http://defectivebydesign.org</a>.
+And for the danger of eBooks and how they take away our freedom, look at
+<a href="http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf">
+http://stallman.org/articles/ebooks.pdf</a>.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Alright, doc, thanks for the time, but in the final statement, just
+reiterating you think it's really exciting that there's such an
+awakening to the power grabbing of the copyright industry and the fact
+that Hollywood and others just think they control the known Universe,
+and this has certainly gotten their attention, what do you expect them
+to do now? How will&hellip;</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>
+<p>They'll find another way. You see, whether we defeat SOPA or not,
+even if we defeat it, it'll be clear that we defeated it because the
+measures they wanted to take were going to cause tremendous damage to
+everything around them. But if they propose something else that'll give
+them more power, but won't hurt other companies, they might still get
+away with it.</p>
+
+<p>So what that means is we still have a long way to go in building up
+our opposition to the point where we can start to undo some of the
+injustices they have already put into copyright law.</p>
+</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>So it was just so ham-fisted and so brazen bull in a china cabinet,
+they were unable to get it, but they will come back. And it does show,
+I mean, remember five years ago, when McCain said &ldquo;let's pass a
+bill where no judge, no jury, no proof we just kill your computer if we
+think you did something copyright,&rdquo; I mean, this is overthrowing
+our entire Magna Charta, our entire constitution. I mean, it's
+tyrannical on it's face, Doc.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Absolutely. But that's what big business is like. Big business
+just wants power and has no respect for anything.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Wow. Well, I look forward to speaking with you again, thank you so
+much, Doctor.</dd>
+
+<dt>RS</dt>
+
+<dd>Happy hacking! Thanks for giving me the chance.</dd>
+
+<dt>AJ</dt>
+
+<dd>Yeah, thanks for being with us.</dd>
+
+</dl>
+
+<div class="column-limit"></div>
+<h3 style="font-size: 1.2em">Footnote</h3>
+<ol>
+ <li id="f1">[2019] We call it <a
+href="/philosophy/why-call-it-the-swindle.html">the Swindle</a>
+because it's designed to swindle readers out of the traditional
+freedoms of readers of books.</li>
+</ol>
+
+</div><!-- for id="content", starts in the include above -->
+<!--#include virtual="/server/footer.html" -->
+<div id="footer">
+<div class="unprintable">
+
+<p>Please send general FSF &amp; GNU inquiries to
+<a href="mailto:gnu@gnu.org">&lt;gnu@gnu.org&gt;</a>.
+There are also <a href="/contact/">other ways to contact</a>
+the FSF. Broken links and other corrections or suggestions can be sent
+to <a href="mailto:webmasters@gnu.org">&lt;webmasters@gnu.org&gt;</a>.</p>
+
+<p><!-- TRANSLATORS: Ignore the original text in this paragraph,
+ replace it with the translation of these two:
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+Please see the <a
+href="/server/standards/README.translations.html">Translations
+README</a> for information on coordinating and submitting translations
+of this article.</p>
+</div>
+
+<!-- Regarding copyright, in general, standalone pages (as opposed to
+ files generated as part of manuals) on the GNU web server should
+ be under CC BY-ND 4.0. Please do NOT change or remove this
+ without talking with the webmasters or licensing team first.
+ Please make sure the copyright date is consistent with the
+ document. For web pages, it is ok to list just the latest year the
+ document was modified, or published.
+
+ If you wish to list earlier years, that is ok too.
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+ year, i.e., a year in which the document was published (including
+ being publicly visible on the web or in a revision control system).
+
+ There is more detail about copyright years in the GNU Maintainers
+ Information document, www.gnu.org/prep/maintain. -->
+
+<p>Copyright &copy; 2012, 2019 Richard Stallman and Alex Jones.</p>
+
+<p>This page is licensed under a <a rel="license"
+href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/">Creative
+Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License</a>.</p>
+
+<!--#include virtual="/server/bottom-notes.html" -->
+
+<p class="unprintable">Updated:
+<!-- timestamp start -->
+$Date: 2019/12/30 11:28:30 $
+<!-- timestamp end -->
+</p>
+</div>
+</div>
+</body>
+</html>